In part 2 of my conversation with Kostiantyn Koshelenko – Ukrainian Deputy Minister of Social Policy for Digital Transformation, and author of "Management in Times of War" – we dig into leadership lessons for managing teams under the intense uncertainty of wartime.
(Click video above ☝️ to start watching)
Today’s edition, “Part 2”, covers:
How Agile methodology shaped Ukraine’s approach to digital transformation
Using digital innovation to support and sustain human capital.
Drawing on diverse perspectives with a network of partners.
Two jobs of leaders in motivating teams.
Transformation as “a marathon run at the pace of a sprint.”
Reducing risk by distributing leadership and decision-making.
Sharing innovations from Ukraine’s frontline with others around the world.
An ethos of “making the world more humane through technology.”
(Video above ☝️. Transcript below 👇)
Follow Kostia on LinkedIn to find out more about his work: here.
(PART 1: If you missed Part 1 of our conversation last week, you can find it here!)
Transcript (part 2):
[00:00:00] David Rogers: I'm sure you had experience with agile, I'm guessing before stepping into your current role or before the war began. Any reflections on what has made those principles particularly important as you deal with the maximum uncertainty of wartime?
[00:00:17] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: Yes. It's about really maximum uncertainty. And Agile methodology has really shaped our approach to digital transformation, especially under this pressure. Normally Agile is about flexibility and fast iteration. " Think, plan a little, execute a little, then adjust as you do." But in wartime this approach becomes really super charged.
[00:00:40] And you have to prioritize even more sharply and react even quicker, because circumstances can change really overnight.
[00:00:50] David Rogers: Yeah, the two week sprint, which seems so short and quick coming from a traditional organization... You may say two weeks is far too long. We've got to change direction or respond from yesterday, right?
[00:01:03] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: Sometimes every morning we have some new tasks. And when we talk about tasks in business, it's about opportunity to make a profit. When we talk about tasks here, it's about always... It's about big families, or about people with disability, or about temporarily occupied territories. And even in normal life, prioritization is hard and I think that it's the main responsibility. A manager not only makes new plan and new ideas, but it's about the possibility to say no for a new project, because you have always some limitation, your team, your resources. But I don't have possibility to say, "no." I always need to try with my team to make it because as you remember, and this is really big and not normal situation, but we make social benefits in the first week of this flooding after Russia hits this dam.
[00:02:11] David Rogers: So as an example, that was a huge dam that was struck and flooding in large areas that were occupied. And so what did you have to do, or what did you pivot to focus on, in the immediate week or two after that happened to try to provide as much aid as possible?
[00:02:26] What was your response or your strategy there?
[00:02:29] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: When we talk about recovery, we don't talk about recovery of the bridges or recovery of the walls or recovery of infrastructure. We talk about human capital. We talk about how to save human capital and how to support it. Sometimes social payments really force major social payments, to support people in the new place where they live.
[00:02:56] After that, it’s social services. We use some practices from Israel because Israel for many years lives in times of war. And some, life hacks for resilience we use in our social offices too.
[00:03:14] David Rogers: So that brings up a point, again. You talked about the many different people who have been part of your journey and who you've learned from and have collaborated with. And some of them are in other parts of the government in Ukraine, the private sector in Ukraine, and so forth.
[00:03:29] But also, I know many of them are in other countries' organizations: both NGOs, private sector companies, and of course government. In the EU, Israel, US other countries around the world. What do you see as the biggest benefit of being able to work with a wide range of partners as you again try to pursue digital transformation and be able to adapt under constant change?
[00:03:54] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: Yeah. And first of all, I need to say that big quantity of partners and supporters, it's really helping. And we really appreciate the support from private individuals, from big international companies, from international organizations. It's very important. But you need to understand that to be connected with this network of partners, it's a hard task.
[00:04:19] I don't have managers responsible for collaboration with all of these tens of different partners. Some of these partners understand what we need to do. Some of them do not. Sometimes they have a different idea how to make things here. Sometimes they don't understand us.
[00:04:41] Sometimes we don't understand them. Sometimes we have language barriers, etcetera. But it's really a big help. And now I try to be a personal account manager to any big partner. It's not only a United Nation organization. For example, it's Visa and MasterCard because they work with payments, and social payments, it's a part of a big payments ecosystem. And we try to work with them. We try to work with banking society, with fintech society, because social benefits is a part of the financial ecosystem. And we try to make this ecosystem more efficient for transactions, for operation of the state and operation of the banks, for example. And for the clients, because for them, it's the clients. For us, it's a citizen. But it's one ecosystem, I think.
[00:05:35] And working with partners in the network approach to digital transformation, it's really bringing for us key benefits. It's allowed us to tap into broader pools of expertise and resources, because it's not only about finding our project. It's about searching of best practices.
[00:05:54] It's about thinking outside outside the box about this situation. Because you need to know that here in Ukraine, we work in the middle of the war, and the stress and the fast decision-making, et cetera, it's really rushed. And when you have partners with cold and very professional brains, who can work in a more safe office... decisions and proposals from these partners... It's really brilliant proposals.
[00:06:30] David Rogers: Yeah.
[00:06:30] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: We can use it. We can implement it directly because we really work around the clock. And sometimes, hardworking, it's not about quality. It's about mistakes. We are all people. And it's really great to be connected with different partners because it's not only about resources, but it's about diversification.
[00:06:56] David Rogers: Yeah. Bringing in that wide range of perspectives, as you pointed out on that earlier slide, in terms of different industries, different backgrounds. Obviously, the perspectives of people who are on the ground like yourself, but it's valuable, as you said, to also get the point of view of someone who is not locked into this intensity of the problems, and can step in from an outside perspective.
[00:07:18] So that's great to hear how you've been able to gain so much from working with the Visas, the Mastercards, other financial services, government supports, and others from so many different domains. Finally, I'd love to talk a bit about another theme of your book which you've already touched on and brought up here, which is: you're dealing with incredibly stressful situations, I'm sure incredibly long hours. And it's one thing to do that when you've got a deadline coming and “Okay, the new products coming out in three months, and we all know we’re just going to push through and then we’ll be there.“
[00:07:55] You're not in that circumstance. You can't tell people, “Okay, three months, 90 days, in X time, we're going to be over this hump.” So that's got to be incredibly taxing for the people who you're leading. And one of the things you talk about in the book is about leading people and the lessons you've learned about how do you lead people effectively. And really being put to the ultimate test in terms of the challenge of getting people to still work together really well. So I know you had a couple slides on that. If you want to share them and some of your thinking on that, I think it would be incredibly valuable.
[00:08:32] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: And let's start from the very small, but very understandable information. We asked our contributors about what drives people in difficult times.
[00:08:44] And all our managers from this book, it's the guys and girls who work with big quantity of people. Who works, for example, in Kharkiv, who works in Odessa, who works in Zaporizhzhia. And after 2022, after two years of war, they have some opinions and good news. If you work correctly with your team, you can achieve the goals you set. Effective teamwork, especially under pressure.
[00:09:14] High res and clear communication, trust, adaptability. With the right approach and strong leadership, even the most challenging condition can be navigated successfully. And yes, it's not about money. It's not about financial incentives. It's about really understanding your critical role and contribution.
[00:09:35] And I need to say that I don't have problem with it. Because my job and the job of my team is very connected with our human capital. It's all about our people. It's about big families, it's about kids, it's about people with disability. And my team understands that we have a really critical role. As we say here, it's a second role after role of our defenders.
[00:10:01] Because it's about the strength of our society. And I think for some people, because as my boss, Minister of Social Policy, Oksana Zholnovych, says that we run a marathon, but in the pace of sprint. And that's why we need to sometimes change some motivation for our people. And even in times of war, some people try to make a career, try to make money, try to work for their families, etc.
[00:10:36] And that's why we need to talk about opportunities. Because if you have a shortage of people, It's an opportunity for some of them who have possibility to make more, who have great ideas, who have great proposals, who have new project. And it's all about work, these people. And think that you and me, we always talk about digital transformation, we talk about really innovative technologies. But despite the complexities of our modern technologies, the greatest challenges and also the greatest opportunity it's ways of working with people and including your team, including your stakeholders, including your partners. And when you share your vision with them, inspire them with your goals...
[00:11:28] ... you will harness incredible strengths. And this collective force can move forward despite all challenges, driven by shared commitment and enthusiasm. I think it's really important. And I think that maybe unity and working with people, it's a main input of the book, not technology and not war because the all even (sorry for my English) I think that people need to understand that we can make a difference in the different positions.
[00:12:01] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: When you work in the army, when you work in social service, when you work on reconstruction of the buildings, when you work as a fireman. It's really important now how you work with your team and how you engage this team to make really hard tasks.
[00:12:21] David Rogers: Yeah, I think that's so important Kostia.
[00:12:24] And, as you talk about the importance of, as you say there on the last slide, “Making the world more humane through technology.” It's about starting with the people not starting with the technology. Of course, you're going to use the technology, but it really it starts and ends with the people.
[00:12:41] And I'm really struck by your two messages about things that leaders constantly have to do. One is making sure that people are inspired by the impact, that they see their work as making a difference. And as you said, whether you're in Ukraine, in the government, whether you're in the army or in social services, or you're the person helping to rebuild buildings and construction, it's so clear and compelling, what a difference your work is making. And then also as leaders, as you pointed out, making sure that you're giving your people opportunity for personal growth. I think that's so important.
[00:13:19] It's both that they see the impact of the work, but also that they have some autonomy, that they have responsibility to make decisions and to do things where they're pushing and pushing themselves in new directions and gaining new skills, taking on new challenges. That is so important for leading others.
[00:13:37] I know there are a lot of anecdotes, really specific things in the book, things you learned to keep your team re energized and give them a chance to recharge or recommit to the focus. Any tips or something you'd say, “ I didn't, know to do this before wartime,
[00:13:52] but one thing I've learned that kind of remotivates my team” that you could share with other leaders?
[00:14:00] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: I think first of all you need to think about that. And I think that my book is not a book to lead people. It's a book to think about your team, think about your decisions, think about your context, where you work.
[00:14:18] After the first year of the war, I understand that question. You are thinking about your job, your project, your people, your communication every day. And every morning you ask yourself, “What do I need to do better? What do I want to do in another way? What best practice do I see around how I lead my team more efficiently?”
[00:14:46] And after that, I think that, Kostia, you need to write it. And after that, I think that, Kostia, you need to communicate with another manager to write it together. Because my point of view is only, it's not right. And only when we collaborate with people from different spheres, only when we build trust, only when we build open communication, when we have a shared vision, it's a possibility to move forward. Every Friday, I have a pizza lunch with my colleagues. I'm deputy minister, and in traditional times it's a position with some limitation with this official meeting .
[00:15:30] But in times of war, I'm without tie. I am in tee shirt. We work together, we work very closely with colleagues. And yes, we have some structure in the ministry, we have bosses, we have deputy ministers. But now it's about flat structure. And I work for building working group around our main project.
[00:15:54] And I say that in this project, the leader of this working group, may be a project manager, it's main boss. When he or she says to make something, he can say that to me and I'm not boss of this project, because it's about system of different project and it's possibility to scale our ideas and project. Because all I need to do for new project, is to find the right people who attract another right people, make a small team, make a short step-by-step experiment, and after that make something great, in a very autonomous regime.
[00:16:38] Because if we talk about risk in times of war, the leader of a big quantity of projects... it's a big point of risk. But when we have some diversification, and people understand not only their personal project, but project left, we always get possibility to make opportunities for members of the team to lead a new project and to build their own success story.
[00:17:08] David Rogers: Yeah that's a great application of the whole approach of product management and the idea of having the team, the product leader, who in that discipline is called the product manager is the “CEO of the product.”
[00:17:19] Giving individuals that ownership to lead a small team on a particular project, having different people step up into those roles. Being connected to each other, knowing what other teams are working on is really critical, I think. And as you said, especially so, because of the additional reason of, yes it's motivating, yes. It brings the most value out, it really draws on the strengths of everyone in your teams to give them that leadership role. But also, it's a matter of reducing risk. You can't afford to have a very traditional, top down structure where everyone's waiting for you to tell them what the next thing to work on is, because that makes you too much of a point of risk for the whole organization.
[00:18:01] Great points. I want to take a couple of questions. We have some that were sent in in advance, and also some from our live attendees. One was... We've talked about how much you've done today, talked about some of the specific projects that you've been building in terms of the payment systems, in terms of the case management system.
[00:18:22] “What's the next product challenge that you're working on today, in terms of the digital transformation of social services? What's the next thing that you're hoping to push forward in the next few months to solve another problem to support human capital in Ukraine?
[00:18:38] That one comes from Pedro.
[00:18:40] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: I think that one of the important projects now it's about electronic case management, because in Ukraine’s social ministry of social policy, it's always about ministry of small social benefits. It's about money, but money is only part of job. When people in difficult circumstances want to change something, money is not enough. And that's why we built electronic case management. And we invest our time in the development of social services. It's a really big priority of this ministry. And in another hand, we have a growing [number] of people with disability, and it's a very big focus to make an inclusive ecosystem of social sphere for them.
[00:19:29] It's not only offline, about offline inclusion. It's about web inclusion. It's about the possibility to apply to the state online, et cetera. And it's a really big scope of work, how we work for people with disability to support them to live their own normal life in our society.
[00:19:51] David Rogers: Yeah, and that's going to be so critical to the ongoing future, as you said, of human capital in Ukraine. Being able to give the many folks with disabilities after war the opportunity and the context to continue to contribute and take as active a role as possible in Ukrainian society.
[00:20:09] We also had a question from Julia asking, “Looking ahead a bit, say five years from now: if Ukraine is hopefully at peace and growing and rebuilding and thriving, what would you like to be doing in the next stage of your career?”
[00:20:24] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: Oh, it's a hard question because we don't think about what I need to do after one year. I think about tomorrow. I think what I need to do now for my country, to support my team, to support people around me, to support my family, my parents, my kids, my wife.
[00:20:49] And I think it's important we talk about other opportunities only after victory.
[00:20:56] David Rogers: I certainly understand that's a hard question to think on right now. So we'll hope and pray that you'll be reflecting on that soon when circumstances have changed and peace has returned to Ukraine, to your country.
[00:21:09] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: I see, perhaps, in this times, we really had to practice. And our country today is a really good sandbox for new technologies, new approaches. Because we need to make an asymmetrical answer to the future. And it's an asymmetrical answer, not only in the battlefield, but in the efficiency of the state.
[00:21:35] And I think that after the war, one of my obligations, as I say, when I say correctly, is to share these ideas, to share these technologies, to share this with people who need this support in another country. Because I really have a lot of contacts with people, with friends who work in humanitarian organizations.
[00:22:04] And it's a very normal situation when a humanitarian organization works with people from countries after war, after crisis, et cetera. Because it's not only about a job. It's about the possibility to say thank you to other countries. To say thank you, to support people in other countries with some kind of similar situation.
[00:22:34] And I think it's my debt. It's my debt to be open to this world, to share our experience, our technology. And I think it sounds like it's the first steps of my plan.
[00:22:49] David Rogers: That's so great to hear. And I think that's a very inspiring message, to reflect on how, amidst all the challenges that you face, that it has really called forth you and so many of your fellow Ukrainians to really innovate, to develop new ideas, new approaches to solving problems under these terrible circumstances, and to be thinking about how, in future days, you can share those with others, with other countries, with the many contacts you've met of other humanitarian organizations who are always on the front lines and wherever it is in the world helping, during war, after war, in natural disasters and so forth. There's always going to be that need, so I think it's a really inspiring message in terms of, what you hope to be able to offer to them in the future.
[00:23:37] This has been such a tremendous conversation, Kostia. I want to thank you so much. I also want to give folks who are watching live or watching the video, or reading the transcript after the fact, the chance to be in touch with you.
[00:23:50] Where can people find you online to learn more about your work and if they want to reach out to you from their own organizations and see any ways that they can be of help to the work that you are continuing to do?
[00:24:04] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: Yeah, David, it's really important, communication. It's a part of my work.
[00:24:09] That's why I have accounts in LinkedIn, I have accounts in Facebook, I have account in X. I have account in Instagram. And in this account, I write information about my new project. I write my updates, and you can follow me and connect with me as a friend in this platform.
[00:24:29] And I think that we will keep in touch.
[00:24:33] David Rogers: Wonderful. I'm just putting those in the webinar chat for our live folks, and we'll include that in the newsletter as well, links to your LinkedIn accounts where you're regularly posting and sharing insights from your work, and also the Facebook and Instagram.
[00:24:47] I also put in the link to your book, of course, for folks who would like to get a copy. Again, the name of the book is "Management in Times of War," by Kostiantyn Koshelenko.
[00:24:59] Thank you so much for joining us today, Kostia. Please be safe and our very best wishes to you and to your team and your partners as you continue the vitally important work that you're doing.
[00:25:12] Thank you again so much for joining us.
[00:25:14] Kostiantyn Koshelenko: Thank you, David and colleagues for your support. Keep in touch.
[00:25:19] David Rogers: Thank you.
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